FIS

No spark, out of clues

36 posts in this topic

Hi.

 

So I've done a lot of thinking before making this post as it's so often that the problem is super easy and as DjDevon3 says TEST TEST TEST, so as of now I've done as much as I can think of without getting closer to finding the problem.

Ok, the problem is that my car, KLDE 93 mod does not get spark, it's already got the HEI mod and external coil (more info below) but it's not the problem.

To start, the HEI is brand new

Coil is measured and within spec

Crank sensor is measured to 500 Ohm (Thinking it's ok since the range should be 520-580, and it's not the best multimeter)

Tested and measured continuity on the "Ignition Relay"

Checked fuses (and measured for continuity, all good)

I recently did a KF distributor swap which was successful, but after the problem occurred I put my old dizzy back on and it has the same problem.

 

Now, this is what I know.

The KLDE has a crank sensor, the 93/94 has 2 (one is inside the distributor) and one cam sensor (inside the distributor). These sensors sends the ECU (or I believe the ECU gets the signal?) to calculate where the crank/cams are in order to send out a signal to the ignitor/ignition module so it can tell the coil to send out a spark.

In my case since I have done the HEI mod I can easily tell if the ignition module/HEI is getting the signal and sending it to the coil, usually it receives it but doesn't send out a new one. BUT it does NOT receive any input signals from the ECU (or whatever it gets it from) so I can exclude both the HEI and the coil for being the problem.

That leaves me with these options (and more I guess, these are the only one I can think of)

Crank sensor at the crank (Which I measured)

Crank sensor inside the distributor (Highly unlikely since it's the same for 2 different dizzy's)

Cam sensor inside the distributor (Highly unlikely since it's the same for 2 different dizzy's)

Relay(s)

ECU

 

I believe this is all I have for now, I'm just all out of clues on what it could be, or how to diagnose some more (no codes is stored either)

ANY tips would be highly appreciated!

 

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My guess: the connection to the crank sensor (the connection just behind the dipstick tube) is dirty. It's a common problem.

Have you checked for codes?

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As said " (no codes is stored either) " last line.

Crank sensor is messured to be OK, according to my knowledge.

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i was told when i did my mechcanics course: start athe spark plugs and work backwards to the key. if it not the plugs then its leads, if its not leads then its distributor. if its not distributor its the coil, if its not the coil its fuses, if its not fuses its the battery if its not battery its key. check your water level too mazda made a stupid system where if the water level gets too low it retards the igntion timing to compensate.

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Spark plugs are as brand new, same with leads.

Distributor is also swapped in case the CAM/CRANK sensor was bad.

Coil is also messured to be within specs.

Fuses are all messured and inspected (multimeter)

Battery is not even a year old, and recharged.

I haven't looked at the key yet, but I asume the starter wouldn't turn if it was bad?

Water should atleast be acceptable, not that long since I refilled it.

 

I appreciate your tips, will check out the key and ignition switch.

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It is running the KLDE ECU and VAF :P

Not sure if there is a short circuit anywhere.

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Messured the crank sensor while cranking, got 496-505 ohm (messured with a digital multimeter) so I'm thinking the crank sensor is bad, ordering a new OEM one.

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On 29-11-2016 at 2:00 AM, gooseboy78 said:

i was told when i did my mechcanics course: start athe spark plugs and work backwards to the key. if it not the plugs then its leads, if its not leads then its distributor. if its not distributor its the coil, if its not the coil its fuses, if its not fuses its the battery if its not battery its key. check your water level too mazda made a stupid system where if the water level gets too low it retards the igntion timing to compensate.

If your trouble shooting, your starting at the beginning and not the end. If the problem is in ignition switch for example, your sparkplugs won't work either, as well as your distributor.

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If i where you, i get rid of the hei module and place a original distributer, and start trouble shooting from there. Only then you have the right information. When everything is up and running again, you can start thinking about that hei module again.

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First of yes I can messure the crank sensor with a multimeter, but I can't test it without an oscilloscope.

You're also saying that gooseboy78's statement where he says to work my way backwards isn't the best solution but instead claim to be working from the ignition switch through every ignition part instead is a better option? And then tell me to remove the HEI module which I've already claimed to be OK and not the problem due to my backwards testing just like gooseboy78 said.

Sorry man but I find your experience to be missing some practical testing.

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yes marcel i find your lack of mechanical skill showing. i said what i did because: tracking down electrical gremlins is a process of elimination, you eliminate the things it isnt to get to the thing it is.

i have been around cars my whole life this isnt the first or last car ive worked on.

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35 minutes ago, gooseboy78 said:

yes marcel i find your lack of mechanical skill showing. i said what i did because: tracking down electrical gremlins is a process of elimination, you eliminate the things it isnt to get to the thing it is.

i have been around cars my whole life this isnt the first or last car ive worked on.

Exactly! And it's usualy the simpliest thing to cause the fault, which is why you start at the end (Plugs->Wires->Coil->And so on)

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On 19-1-2017 at 6:51 PM, FIS said:

First of yes I can messure the crank sensor with a multimeter, but I can't test it without an oscilloscope.

You're also saying that gooseboy78's statement where he says to work my way backwards isn't the best solution but instead claim to be working from the ignition switch through every ignition part instead is a better option? And then tell me to remove the HEI module which I've already claimed to be OK and not the problem due to my backwards testing just like gooseboy78 said.

Sorry man but I find your experience to be missing some practical testing.

 

14 hours ago, FIS said:

Exactly! And it's usualy the simpliest thing to cause the fault, which is why you start at the end (Plugs->Wires->Coil->And so on)

You can't see the signal with a multimeter, the fact that you measure a resistance, doesn't mean your crack sensor gives a good output signal.
How do i know, been there done that!!

In general it works like that yes, but if i have a complicated issue, and the simple things are not the problem. I'm starting at the beginning and follow the signal, untill i lose it.
Better than just swapping a distributer because it's most likely. Maybe it's takes some more time, but i want to rule out everything else.

 

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By the way, i'm working on mazda's for over 20 years. recently did a compleet rebuild of my 626. Went from a 1,8L-16V to a 2,5-24V. From non ABS to ABS on the car. Factory cruise control, so i think i do know what i'm saying.

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3 hours ago, marcel21674 said:

You can't see the signal with a multimeter, the fact that you measure a resistance, doesn't mean your crack sensor gives a good output signal.

 

On 19.1.2017 at 6:51 PM, FIS said:

First of yes I can messure the crank sensor with a multimeter, but I can't test it without an oscilloscope.

See how I already pointed that out?

 

3 hours ago, marcel21674 said:

In general it works like that yes, but if i have a complicated issue, and the simple things are not the problem. I'm starting at the beginning and follow the signal, untill i lose it.
Better than just swapping a distributer because it's most likely. Maybe it's takes some more time, but i want to rule out everything else.

How the hell would you know if you have a "complicated issue" or not when you haven't eliminated anything for being broken?

 

3 hours ago, marcel21674 said:

By the way, i'm working on mazda's for over 20 years. recently did a compleet rebuild of my 626. Went from a 1,8L-16V to a 2,5-24V. From non ABS to ABS on the car. Factory cruise control, so i think i do know what i'm saying.

If you have been working on Mazda's for 20 years I'd imagine your mechanical skills would be much higher.

And swapping out from a 1.8l FP engine to a 2.5l KL isn't something that requires knowledge man, you even had a donor car to grab the parts from, it's basically just "remove old part, move new part from dono car and tighten" Requires a ton of skills man!

 

I'm sorry but if you don't have some more skillshowing and relevant posts I would like to ask you to stop replying to this topic, I'm trying to fix my car, not argue.

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9 hours ago, marcel21674 said:

By the way, i'm working on mazda's for over 20 years. recently did a compleet rebuild of my 626. Went from a 1,8L-16V to a 2,5-24V. From non ABS to ABS on the car. Factory cruise control, so i think i do know what i'm saying.

actually you dont. swapping things dont make you a mechanic. what i was telling FIS was basic mechanics 101 if you were such a mechanic you would have known this

like i said i have been working on cars my whole life in my spare time: mazdas, fords, holdens & chevy, nissans and datsuns, toyotas, bmw and mercedes benz. working on one type of car has made you one eyed.

plus i have had more cars than birthday candles...

 

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I'm not going to waste my time, trying to convince you, that i have plenty of skills.

I just have a different way of approaching an electrical problem. why disconnect every single abs sensor, if you can measure them all at once at the abs computer.

 
 

 

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Why even messure them when you can just read out ABS codes and be done with it?

 

Either way I would like the following posts to be on topic so that I can figure out what the problem actually is.

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4 hours ago, FIS said:

Why even messure them when you can just read out ABS codes and be done with it?

 

Either way I would like the following posts to be on topic so that I can figure out what the problem actually is.

Because, i could not read codes from the abs computer. I suspect, that a broken wire (wich came from the abs computer) under the dashbord was the cause of that.  

Because of that broken wire the abs light stayed on. To rule out a bad sensor i had to measure them.

That's why.

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So I checked for continuity between the HEI module, cam sensor (or crank sensor inside disty) and ECU and they are all good. Will check for continuity between the crank sensor and the ECU next, but I'm really loosing it :(

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check for broken distributor shaft. i know its shot in the dark but what ya got to lose?

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Thanks for the tip but I've got 2 different distributors, they are both ok "/

Checked some more of the wiring, every wire seems to be as it should, will try to do some more voltage testing next.

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my buddy has a GD 1800cc wagon. but it was getting intermittent spark replaced cap and rotor which helped, but then he spotted crack in distributor was only small crack

but pulled out distributor and it was dead. swapped it it with one from the wreckers and it was going again.

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