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Bonebag

Itb's

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I'm just on a mad topic starting spree lately, aren't I :P ? Anyways, on with the show. Does anybody know what a viable ITB option for the KL would be? I've seen 4AGE 20V itb's on quite a few different models of cars, but another option I've really been thinking about were the suzuki gsxr 1000 throttle bodies - everybody seems to use 'em and you can pick them up on the cheap off of ebay. This is something that I'm pretty interested in - if I get a definitive answer, I'll probably end up trying out ITB's and standalone.

So would GSXR 1000/750 or 4AGE ITB's bolt up with a little custom work? If someone's already done this, I haven't come across it, or if there's an ITB kit for us out there, I haven't come across it.

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It has been done a few times, go to probetalk.com and search for user Leo323 and it will tell you a bunch of stuff, He is running GSXR 1300 Hayabusa throttle bodies.

img-278894-1-IMG_0078.jpg

http://s304.photobucket.com/albums/nn199/leo3230/ This is his photobucket account.

There is a KLZE with ITB's from a Suzuki 1000

http://majica.net/JNR/jnr.htm

img-278894-2-IRTB2.jpg

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/KLZE-po...Miata_72908.htm

Both of these guys have a pile of money and run aftermarket engine management software. Leo uses Electromotive Tech 3 and its over $3000 for the computer and the ignition system.

You can also stroke the V6 out to 2.8L find out more here

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701159813

Bring cash, a lot of cash, no really a whole lot of cash!!

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There are a few guys spinning 10K rpm but they are running external oil pumps. There is one guy running NA with 13.7:1 compression ratio and he also has aluminum connecting rods, there are a few 11:1 and 11.5:1 compression ration pistons available. You can even get Ford 347 Stroker rods made from Titanium (about $2500 for 8 pieces) and they will work in a KL motor.

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There are a few guys spinning 10K rpm but they are running external oil pumps. There is one guy running NA with 13.7:1 compression ratio and he also has aluminum connecting rods, there are a few 11:1 and 11.5:1 compression ration pistons available. You can even get Ford 347 Stroker rods made from Titanium (about $2500 for 8 pieces) and they will work in a KL motor.

Any power numbers to go with that? Surely anyone with that kind of money to sink into a KL motor can afford dyno time, and I'd be interested to see it. I love forced induction, but there's something about a well-balanced, high-compression, high-revving, heavy-breathing NA motor that gets me. I know NA tuning doesn't make much sense when it comes to the bang-for-buck factor, but you can't tell me a peripheral ported rotary spinning at 13 grand or a Ferrari V12 tapping the absurd end of the tachometer isn't every bit as delicious as a WRX blowing 40 pounds of boost through a sequential blow-off valve or a 911 GT2 spooling two turbos.

I'm getting frilly...

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Well Gerry Sica is putting out 290WHP N/A and Leo323 is making 260WHP N/A with the ITB's I don't know about the strokers there are only a few and I would have to do a lot of searching to find out. I would suspect around 230-250WHP

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Those are some pretty solid numbers. Is a high-dollar EMS required to run a set up like that, or could something less expensive like Megasquirt handle it?

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That's a good improvement over stock, but I'd be more tempted to build up a 350. A new set of heads can add 100hp...

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That's a good improvement over stock, but I'd be more tempted to build up a 350. A new set of heads can add 100hp...

Sure...it's gratifying, but it's too unexciting. There are people that enjoy doing the muscle work and getting the results, but then there are nerds like me who enjoy poring over facts and figures and plans before turning a wrench. To me, a stroked 2.8L ZE sounds much more interesting than a 350 with aftermarket heads, even if the 350 does make more power.

Working smarter isn't always as fulfilling as working harder.

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Working smarter isn't always as fulfilling as working harder.

So you agree it's not the smartest idea then. I don't mean to discourage, just enlighten. Too many people come by and talk about building up a KL. When and if they finally sit down and start adding up numbers, they realize that their car cost less then what the price of what they want to build. When you think about it though, you can just buy a sports car that is meant to handle and go fast for less then the amount of money to make a 626 equivalent. I know the 626 would be more unique then said sports car, but a sports car is built for...well...sport while the 626 is just a four door saloon.

If you have a lathe, that is a different story...

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Working smarter isn't always as fulfilling as working harder.

So you agree it's not the smartest idea then. I don't mean to discourage, just enlighten. Too many people come by and talk about building up a KL. When and if they finally sit down and start adding up numbers, they realize that their car cost less then what the price of what they want to build. When you think about it though, you can just buy a sports car that is meant to handle and go fast for less then the amount of money to make a 626 equivalent. I know the 626 would be more unique then said sports car, but a sports car is built for...well...sport while the 626 is just a four door saloon.

If you have a lathe, that is a different story...

Word. Just like it's cheaper to buy a '93 MX-6 LS MTX than it is to buy a '93 Honda Civic LX Coupe and make it as fast as an MX-6 (side note: note the post on the MX-6). That doesn't keep people from buying Civics and modifying them before they even think of an MX-6. It just depends on what you get your kicks and giggles from.

In a typical stint of procrastination, I started doing the math on building a high-dollar KL based on the info RoadRage gave, some of my own research and experience, and a couple roundabout figures for the things I wasn't sure of, and came up with this...

2.8L, 1x,000 RPM KL

KL-ZE - $800

Innovate Wideband O2 sensor w/ gauge - $400

Megasquirt-II PCB3 - $350

JE Honda CRV pistons (6) - $960

Eagle Del Sol rods (6) - $500

Block work (bored, hot-tanked, blah blah) - $1000

Crank work (turned, knife-edged, balanced, shot-peened, and re-nitrided) - $600

Walbro 255lph fuel pump - $120

Hayabusa 1300 throttle bodies - $450

Stainless steel braided lines (20 ft) w/ fittings - $300

Adjustable FPR - $70

Dyno time - $400

Total cost - $5950.00 +/- Not including the odds and ends that come with this sort of project.

You could start out with an 03 or DE since you're just going to hock all the internals anyway, and truth be told, the DE heads would be better, but $400 for a DE or 03 from a junkyard, plus the $400+ you're going to spend on ZE camshafts or having all four re-ground and it ends up being more cost effective than buying an 03 or DE, plus it cuts down on the amount of headwork you'd have to have (the HLAs will be a problem, though). I didn't figure in the rod bearings, external oil pump, various gaskets, and the materials needed to fabricate the manifolds and fuel rails for the ITBs. The manifolds would probably run you $40-$60 to make the pair, assuming you have your own welder and cutting torch or have a friend that will let you use theirs (that is based on the eBay prices for a decent grade aluminum). I couldn't find any information on aluminum billets suitable for fuel rails, so I can't really say anything for that. The prices include estimated or exact shipping cost. If you know people and places, you could most certainly do the build for cheaper.

Feel free to make any corrections or objections. I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to dyno time and machining costs for V6 engines at a shops where you don't know the guy who owns it.

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I would hope the block work isn't that much. I paid $150~ to get my 289 bored, hot tanked, and the usual stuff.

What about the ignition (e.g. distributor, wires, spark plugs, coil)? Also, a new clutch would probably be a good idea as well as axles. What are you doing about the valve train? At the least, larger springs would be helpful. Boring the ports could also help.

It would be cool if someone made a dry sump system.

Sorry about my previous post though. It's good that you've actually researched it and realize it isn't cheap. How sure are you about the 10,000 rpm mark though? That one video posted above with the aftermarket RPM gauge doesn't sound like 10,000 rpms.

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I would hope the block work isn't that much. I paid $150~ to get my 289 bored, hot tanked, and the usual stuff.

What about the ignition (e.g. distributor, wires, spark plugs, coil)? Also, a new clutch would probably be a good idea as well as axles. What are you doing about the valve train? At the least, larger springs would be helpful. Boring the ports could also help.

It would be cool if someone made a dry sump system.

Sorry about my previous post though. It's good that you've actually researched it and realize it isn't cheap. How sure are you about the 10,000 rpm mark though? That one video posted above with the aftermarket RPM gauge doesn't sound like 10,000 rpms.

The $150 sounds about right for block work, but I had custom block braces figured in. I still don't think it'd be $1000, but I'm not sure how much shops would charge for custom parts like that (if you have an idea, let me know). Clutch was left out, as well as the lighter flywheel. I didn't worry about drivetrain stuff, just the things needed to build the engine and make it run. The ignition I completely forgot, though, so I'll have to figure that in. I couldn't really find any aftermarket valvetrain parts, so I wasn't sure where to go with that. 1mm oversized valves (figure in having new valve seats cut) and stronger springs would be great, if not necessary. I'm not sure if that piston/rod combo would make the KL and interference engine. If it does end up an interference engine, then having the valve reliefs in the pistons matched to the valve size would probably be necessary. My friend had 1mm oversized valves in his LS-VTEC and didn't know about the size difference in the reliefs and the pistons slowly beat his valve heads off. It was Bad News Bears, and it took him two heads to figure out it wasn't the timing belt jumping teeth. (Plug for Probe Industries pistons: the valves were stainless steel and he was spinning 8 grand at the end of the drag strip the second time they broke. The pistons were marred but they didn't have so much as a hairline crack in them. It was the same with the first set, except he was only running 5,600 on the dyno when they broke). I did think of head work, but my friend does darn good port and polish jobs and it doesn't seem that hard to make a decent flowing head assuming you know what you're doing and have access to a air-powered rotary tool and a flow bench. If you had a shop do it, that would add a decent amount to the price.

I was just making a guesstimate at the 10K rpm redline. I know stroked 2.8L RB26s can spin 10 grand, so I assume that there is no way in the world you couldn't hit 10 grand with a KL using a factory stroke crank and Del Sol rods if you have the valvetrain, ignition, and fuel delivery to keep up with it.

A dry sump would be very nice.

No need to apologize, man. This forum is for discussions like this, and I know you weren't trying to be a jerk or anything.

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Ferrea sells everything for a KL valve train...

Dual valve springs: $19.50 each

Titanium retainers: $19.50 each

Spring seat locators: $3.99 each

1mm oversized Competition Plus valves: $22.99 each (ex.), $21.99 each (int.)

Toga sells valve seals for $79/set

so it'd be a total of $1650.52 for an entire valve train, save for guides, locks, and camshafts. Oh the joys of having 24 valves.

Prices from here...

If that setup wouldn't hold together up to 10k RPM, I don't know what would.

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Yeah, no joke.

That puts the total engine cost at $7600.52, sans ignition.

I mean, I guess it isn't too ridiculous, seeing that I know guys who have dumped twice as much money into their engines and done most of the work themselves.

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Working smarter isn't always as fulfilling as working harder.

So you agree it's not the smartest idea then. I don't mean to discourage, just enlighten. Too many people come by and talk about building up a KL. When and if they finally sit down and start adding up numbers, they realize that their car cost less then what the price of what they want to build. When you think about it though, you can just buy a sports car that is meant to handle and go fast for less then the amount of money to make a 626 equivalent. I know the 626 would be more unique then said sports car, but a sports car is built for...well...sport while the 626 is just a four door saloon.

If you have a lathe, that is a different story...

Word. Just like it's cheaper to buy a '93 MX-6 LS MTX than it is to buy a '93 Honda Civic LX Coupe and make it as fast as an MX-6 (side note: note the post on the MX-6). That doesn't keep people from buying Civics and modifying them before they even think of an MX-6. It just depends on what you get your kicks and giggles from.

In a typical stint of procrastination, I started doing the math on building a high-dollar KL based on the info RoadRage gave, some of my own research and experience, and a couple roundabout figures for the things I wasn't sure of, and came up with this...

2.8L, 1x,000 RPM KL

KL-ZE - $800

Innovate Wideband O2 sensor w/ gauge - $400

Megasquirt-II PCB3 - $350

JE Honda CRV pistons (6) - $960

Eagle Del Sol rods (6) - $500

Block work (bored, hot-tanked, blah blah) - $1000

Crank work (turned, knife-edged, balanced, shot-peened, and re-nitrided) - $600

Walbro 255lph fuel pump - $120

Hayabusa 1300 throttle bodies - $450

Stainless steel braided lines (20 ft) w/ fittings - $300

Adjustable FPR - $70

Dyno time - $400

Total cost - $5950.00 +/- Not including the odds and ends that come with this sort of project.

You could start out with an 03 or DE since you're just going to hock all the internals anyway, and truth be told, the DE heads would be better, but $400 for a DE or 03 from a junkyard, plus the $400+ you're going to spend on ZE camshafts or having all four re-ground and it ends up being more cost effective than buying an 03 or DE, plus it cuts down on the amount of headwork you'd have to have (the HLAs will be a problem, though). I didn't figure in the rod bearings, external oil pump, various gaskets, and the materials needed to fabricate the manifolds and fuel rails for the ITBs. The manifolds would probably run you $40-$60 to make the pair, assuming you have your own welder and cutting torch or have a friend that will let you use theirs (that is based on the eBay prices for a decent grade aluminum). I couldn't find any information on aluminum billets suitable for fuel rails, so I can't really say anything for that. The prices include estimated or exact shipping cost. If you know people and places, you could most certainly do the build for cheaper.

Feel free to make any corrections or objections. I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to dyno time and machining costs for V6 engines at a shops where you don't know the guy who owns it.

Custom ground Performance Cam shafts :smile: There is another $400-500 with shipping. You should have the engine put on an engine dyno to tune that kind of monster, you are also going to want an aluminum flywheel they also run in the 3-500 dollar range. Also use Mazda Valve seals, the toga ones are questionable, i'm not sure if they include the exhaust ones; I think they are all the same material and you definitely need different seals for the exhaust valves. And I am not sure if you can use a Megasquirt with ITB's Leo 323 is using an Electromotive Tec 3 $2500 for that and he is using Electromotive Coil Packs another 600 or so.

That brings the total up to $11350.00 with ecu and ignition. And you have to use an aftermarket oil pump an external one, the crank shaft oil pump does not like over 8000 RPM at all, any vibration and it explodes. I would say another $1000 for the oil pump and custom oil pan. A wet sump external pump is good enough, dry sump is not needed for our cars because the crank shaft does not spin through the oil. A safe bet would be $13000.00 rough grand total. Add 400HP nitrous and that would be another $1500. You would probably be making around 700 HP with that set up.

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Working smarter isn't always as fulfilling as working harder.

So you agree it's not the smartest idea then. I don't mean to discourage, just enlighten. Too many people come by and talk about building up a KL. When and if they finally sit down and start adding up numbers, they realize that their car cost less then what the price of what they want to build. When you think about it though, you can just buy a sports car that is meant to handle and go fast for less then the amount of money to make a 626 equivalent. I know the 626 would be more unique then said sports car, but a sports car is built for...well...sport while the 626 is just a four door saloon.

If you have a lathe, that is a different story...

Word. Just like it's cheaper to buy a '93 MX-6 LS MTX than it is to buy a '93 Honda Civic LX Coupe and make it as fast as an MX-6 (side note: note the post on the MX-6). That doesn't keep people from buying Civics and modifying them before they even think of an MX-6. It just depends on what you get your kicks and giggles from.

In a typical stint of procrastination, I started doing the math on building a high-dollar KL based on the info RoadRage gave, some of my own research and experience, and a couple roundabout figures for the things I wasn't sure of, and came up with this...

2.8L, 1x,000 RPM KL

KL-ZE - $800

Innovate Wideband O2 sensor w/ gauge - $400

Megasquirt-II PCB3 - $350

JE Honda CRV pistons (6) - $960

Eagle Del Sol rods (6) - $500

Block work (bored, hot-tanked, blah blah) - $1000

Crank work (turned, knife-edged, balanced, shot-peened, and re-nitrided) - $600

Walbro 255lph fuel pump - $120

Hayabusa 1300 throttle bodies - $450

Stainless steel braided lines (20 ft) w/ fittings - $300

Adjustable FPR - $70

Dyno time - $400

Total cost - $5950.00 +/- Not including the odds and ends that come with this sort of project.

You could start out with an 03 or DE since you're just going to hock all the internals anyway, and truth be told, the DE heads would be better, but $400 for a DE or 03 from a junkyard, plus the $400+ you're going to spend on ZE camshafts or having all four re-ground and it ends up being more cost effective than buying an 03 or DE, plus it cuts down on the amount of headwork you'd have to have (the HLAs will be a problem, though). I didn't figure in the rod bearings, external oil pump, various gaskets, and the materials needed to fabricate the manifolds and fuel rails for the ITBs. The manifolds would probably run you $40-$60 to make the pair, assuming you have your own welder and cutting torch or have a friend that will let you use theirs (that is based on the eBay prices for a decent grade aluminum). I couldn't find any information on aluminum billets suitable for fuel rails, so I can't really say anything for that. The prices include estimated or exact shipping cost. If you know people and places, you could most certainly do the build for cheaper.

Feel free to make any corrections or objections. I'm a little out of the loop when it comes to dyno time and machining costs for V6 engines at a shops where you don't know the guy who owns it.

Your forgetting Valve springs and Retainers and Custom ground Performance Cam shafts :smile: There is another $1000

I added the valvetrain stuff (save for the camshafts) in a later post. I came up with $1650.52 for everything except camshafts, valve guides, and locks.

I did try to sort out the ignition mess, and this is what I came up with:

MSD 6AL-2 Ignition - $279.00

MSD Blaster SS Ignition coil - $44.50

MSD 8910-EIS tach adapter: $55.70

Taylor ThunderVolt 8.2mm Spark plug wires - $125.69

NGK Iridium spark plugs - $7.99 each

So the all the ignition stuff for a grand total of $554.32. I just kind of piddled around on the MSD site, Summit Racing, MX6.com, and ProbeTalk to piece everything together. It seems like it'd be able to keep up. According to the MSD website, the 6AL-2 is good for 12.5k RPM. I'm not sure if the Blaster SS coil is overkill, so feel free to correct me on that. Or on any of it.

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Custom ground Performance Cam shafts :smile: There is another $400-500 with shipping. You should have the engine put on an engine dyno to tune that kind of monster, you are also going to want an aluminum flywheel they also run in the 3-500 dollar range. Also use Mazda Valve seals, the toga ones are questionable, i'm not sure if they include the exhaust ones; I think they are all the same material and you definitely need different seals for the exhaust valves. And I am not sure if you can use a Megasquirt with ITB's Leo 323 is using an Electromotive Tec 3 $2500 for that and he is using Electromotive Coil Packs another 600 or so.

That brings the total up to $11350.00 with ecu and ignition. And you have to use an aftermarket oil pump an external one, the crank shaft oil pump does not like over 8000 RPM at all, any vibration and it explodes. I would say another $1000 for the oil pump and custom oil pan. A wet sump external pump is good enough, dry sump is not needed for our cars because the crank shaft does not spin through the oil. A safe bet would be $13000.00 rough grand total. Add 400HP nitrous and that would be another $1500. You would probably be making around 700 HP with that set up.

Where can you pick up reground camshafts for that price? That's actually not bad for four camshafts.

I found a Moroso 22600 external oil pump for $599.95. A custom pan could probably be fabricated for something like $200 assuming you know people.

The dyno time was in the initial figures at $400, but I guess that depends on how long it takes you to tune it and who does the tuning. The shop 15 miles from my house in Georgia charges $150 for DIY tuning, $200 to have the in-house tuners do all the work.

So the grand total is up to $8954.79, sans camshafts, valve guides and locks, a fresh gasket set, and other odds and ends for the engine.

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How fast can that Blaster SS coil recharge? at 10,000 the coil has to fire every .00005 seconds. 1/(10000rpm x 6 cylinders) = 0.000016666666666666.... x 2 (each cylinder only fires once every 2 rotations) = .00005 seconds.

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How fast can that Blaster SS coil recharge? at 10,000 the coil has to fire every .00005 seconds. 1/(10000rpm x 6 cylinders) = 0.000016666666666666.... x 2 (each cylinder only fires once every 2 rotations) = .00005 seconds.

I checked the MSD catalog again, and the Blaster SS coil is only one step up from the Blaster 2 coil, so I guess it couldn't hurt to go with the Blaster HVC coil (top shelf for the 6AL-2, so it had better be able to handle atleast 10,000 RPM).

The Blaster HVC is $136.30, putting the new total at $9046.59.

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