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sorgeangel

Cng Conversion?

53 posts in this topic

:wub: ^_^ Gas :mellow:

B) CNG B)

Now here is the thing, I am bored, and pissed off, all at the same time. So this idea may be dumb to many, but its important to me...I had been paying $2.05 for 93 octane for some months now, and its pissing me off because now I am paying $2.23 for 93 octane. So i estimate that in 5 years I'll be paying $3.50 a gallon. Which I see as utterly wrong. 4 years ago I had a friend who had GMC Sierra(company car) that ran on CNG (compressed natural gas), he said he would barley fill up the tank, and that the truck ran beautifully after the conversion.

Now, before anyone starts making ignorant comments, I let you know something, in a couple of years we are gonna be paying a good chunk of our paychecks towards gas. I already spend $120-$150 a month. I would pay what is about $1.20 a gallon in AmeriGas for a CNG fill. That is a little over half the price of what I get now. See right now we do not have CNG available in most areas, and it is not practical for most people. For me on the other hand there are two station near my house and job where I can fill up.

See I want to convert my 626 to CNG, instead of the Accord V6 for obvious reasons ('95 vs '04). I was wondering whether anyone here new anything of these types of conversions. See there are alot of benefits, for example:

lower fuel costs

120+ octane

lower maintenance costs

most certainly & cleaner exhaust emissions

The conversion is supposed to be actually inexpensive except for the tank. It will actually keeps your engine way cleaner than gas, and some cop cars here in Miami already have the switch. So does anyone know where to start?

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i live in miami, and it's pretty interesting to know that cops use CNG...well..how about the benefits performancewise?

will it actually be BETTER than gas? or is it gonna be just a "transportation" kinda car..

with gas i guess u can take out the EGR, cat converter and just have a muffler...since gas has no harmful emmisions....

do u know at least where to get a kit like that for a sierra?, maybe with some tinkering you can retrofit, or perhaps fabricate your own..

i will certainly look fordward to hearing more about this....in miami, gas prices are RIDICULOUS....2.10 for 87 octane? F that!!! i am not mad eof money....

and if anyways the government is gonna required a CNG powered car in the future...will be READY...

i know...nothing useful in my post...just supporting that dude's idea!

can someone from the BIG guys here have some input on this?

Colombian....Mazda 626 '93......Representing Miami, FL with my shitty car!

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natural gas vehicles (CNG and LNG)

CNG (compressed natural gas)

LNG (liquefied natural gas)

CNG is an acronym for compressed natural gas; LNG stands for Liquefied Natural Gas.

CNG-powered vehicles use natural gas -- the same fuel that is used by stoves, water heaters and clothes dryers -- stored in cylinders at pressures of 2,000 to 3,500 pounds per square inch. Compressed natural gas is used in light-duty passenger vehicles and pickup trucks, medium-duty delivery trucks, and in transit and school buses. LNG, on the other hand, is favored for heavy-duty applications, such as transit buses, train locomotives and long-haul semi-trucks.

CNG (Compressed Natural Gas)

Natural gas vehicles are expected to help auto companies meet the California Air Resources Board's 1997 mandates for Low Emission Vehicles and Ultra-Low Emission Vehicles. Because there are abundant supplies of natural gas in North America, using natural gas to replace gasoline helps reduce our country's dependency on foreign petroleum.

The cost of equipping a light-duty vehicle to run on compressed natural gas (CNG) can range from about $2,000 up to about $6,000, depending on the vehicle and number of cylinders to store the fuel. Natural gas is less expensive than gasoline, and the relatively stable price of the fuel makes it attractive to fleets to help them budget their transportation expenses.

CNG ranks relatively high in convenience and availability. California's extensive network of natural gas pipelines can deliver the fuel directly to many sites where compressors are installed by the local utility. These can even include individual homes. Two types of fueling systems are available for commercial use: a "quick fill" system that fuels a vehicle in five minutes (similar to the time it takes to fuel a vehicle with gasoline) or a "slow fill" system that can fuel an entire fleet overnight. CNG may be the preferred clean, alternative fuel for fleet use where vehicles travel specified routes, such as delivery trucks, and return to a central yard where they can be slow-filled overnight.

Top of Page

LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas)

Natural gas turns into a liquid for easy storage or transport by extreme cooling to minus 263.2 degrees Fahrenheit (-164 degrees Celsius). LNG is almost pure methane and, because it is a liquid, has an energy storage density much closer to gasoline than CNG. The requirements of keeping the liquid very cold, along with its volatility, make its applications more limited for transportation purposes. It is typically used in heavy-duty applications such as transit buses, heavy-duty long-haul trucks or locomotives.

On-line resources:

contacts for alternative fuel vehicles

ethanol vehicles

methanol vehicles

electric vehicles

natural gas vehicles

propane / LPG vehicles

fuel cell & hybrid vehicles

Ethanol

Bill Holmberg

President

American Biofuels Association

1925 N. Lynn Street, Suite 1050

Arlington, VA 22209

703-522-3392

American Council For Ethanol

PO Box 85102

Sioux Falls, SD 57104

Web site: www.ethanol.org

Jeff Beller and Julia Delain

Biofuels America

RD 1, Box 19

Westerlo, NY 12193-9801

518-797-3377

Douglas Durante

Clean Fuels Development Coalition

7315 Wisconsin Avenue

East Tower -- Suite 515

Bethesda, MD 20814

301-913-9636

Patricia Sullivan

Consortium for Planned Biotechnology Research

1220 Potter Drive, Suite 130-D

West Lafayette, IN 47906

317-494-9334

A. Michel Clement

Alternative Fuels Vehicle Marketing

DaimlerChrysler Corporation

12000 Chrysler Drive

CIMS 414-03-44

Highland Park, MI 48288

313-956-4599

Ford Motor Company

Alternative Fuel Vehicle Hotline

1-877-ALT-FUEL (258-3835)

W.J. "Bill" Boultas

Account Executive

Fleet Sales Dept.

General Fleet Office

Ford Division

P.O. Box 9048

Pleasanton, CA 94566

510-463-5791

Lou Ulrich

Account Executive

Fleet Sales Dept.

General Fleet Office

Ford Division

2099 South State College Blvd.

Suite 600

Anaheim, CA 92816

714-939-3562

Gerald J. Barnes

Manager

Automotive Emissions Control

General Motors Corporation

3044 West Grand Blvd.

Detroit, MI 48202

313-556-7723

Governor's Ethanol Coalition

ENR 325 West Adams, 3rd Floor

Springfield, IL 62704

217-785-2800

Iowa Corn Promotion Board

306 West Tower

1200 35th Street

W. Des Moines, IA 50262

515-225-9242

Bob Mustell

National Corn Growers Association

1000 Executive Parkway, Suite 105

St. Louis, MO 63141

314-275-9915 ext. 113

Eric Vaughn

Executive Director

Renewable Fuels Association

One Massachusetts Ave., N.W., # 820

Washington, DC 20001

202-289-3835

Sustainable Farming

REAP - Canada

Box 125, Glenaladale House

Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Quebec

CANADA H9X 1C0

514-398-7743

Methanol Vehicles

American Methanol Institute

815 Connecticut Ave., N.W.,

Suite 800

Washington, DC 20006

202-467-5050

Web site: www.methanol.org

Kenneth D. Smith, Consultant

(West Coast Representative)

American Methanol Institute

3939 Fair Hill Rd.

Fair Oaks, CA 95628

916-204-4421

California Energy Commission

Transportation Technology & Fuels Office

1516 Ninth Street, MS-41

Sacramento, CA 95814

916-654-4634

M85 Fueling Problems in California: 800-CEC-4M85 (toll free in California)

California Fuel Methanol Reserve

Card-Key Access

Judy Burns

Chevron Products Company U.S.A.

P.O. Box 9560

Concord, CA 94524-9875

800-554-1376

A. Michel Clement

Alternative Fuels Vehicle Marketing

Chrysler Corporation

12000 Chrysler Drive

CIMS 414-03-44

Highland Park, MI 48288

313-956-4599

Ford Motor Company

Alternative Fuel Vehicle Hotline

1-877-ALT-FUEL (258-3835)

Lou Ulrich

Account Executive

Fleet Sales Dept

General Fleet Office

Ford Division

2099 South State College Blvd.

Suite 600

Anaheim, CA 92816

714-939-3562

Gerald J. Barnes

Manager

Automotive Emissions Control

General Motors Corporation

3044 West Grand Blvd.

Detroit, MI 48202

313-556-7723

http://www.eere.energy.gov/afdc/index.html

^^^^^Currently Available Vehicles^^^^^

http://search.ebay.com/compressed-natural-...aturalQ2aQ20gas

^^^^from e-bay^^^^

Introduction to the Technology

When examining natural gas technology in the transport field, a distinction must be made between its supply, the refuelling stations and the vehicles themselves.

Gas Supply

Natural gas basically consists of methane, and it therefore provides a genuine energy alternative. Natural gas can be used in engines in a liquefied form or as compressed gas. In order to liquefy it at atmospheric pressure, it would be necessary to bring it to a temperature of -162 C. As a result of supply conditions, in Europe it is used mainly in the form of Compressed Natural Gas (CNG).

The Refuelling Station

The widespread use of natural gas as a transport fuel will require easy access to the fuel from a large number of suitable filling stations of a similar nature to the current network, that would allow rapid refuelling.

The facilities to implement such a system consist of the following elements:

National gas pipeline supply network

Local filling stations comprising storage, gas compression units and refuelling pipes

High pressure gas storage tanks suitable for attachment to vehicles and capable of withstanding crash impact forces

There are several types of refuelling station depending on whether refuelling is carried out slowly (over some 7-8 hours) or quickly (610minutes).

Currently, certified gas compression units, storage and filling systems are available to meet the necessary criteria for safe and emission-free vehicle refuelling. Suitable gas storage facilities are also available.

The Vehicle

A range of existing conventional engines can be converted to run on natural gas. Moreover, engines designed specifically for natural gas are available as prototypes.

The reliability of these systems has yet to be comprehensively demonstrated, although there are programmes to do so currently in progress. Until this process is complete and the demand for dedicated natural gas vehicles increases, the costs of such vehicles will remain high.

It is expected that the initial use of natural gas in the transport sector will be concentrated in urban vehicle fleets, where the depot can have easy access to a gas supply, and the environmental benefits of low emissions will be maximised.

Compared with conventional vehicles, vehicles running on natural gas are characterised by the engine settings and the presence of larger volume storage tanks.

Given the high antiknocking capacity of this fuel, higher than that of petrol, gas cannot be used in engines with compression ignition, but must be used in Otto cycle or spark ignition engines. This has advantages and drawbacks. On the one hand, since gas has a higher octane rating, spark ignition engines can be designed with a higher compression ratio and these are more efficient. On the other hand, however, the thermodynamic efficiency of the gas cycle is lower than with Diesel. The best gas powered engines achieve a level of efficiency in the order of 36-37%, which places them above petrol engines but below modern Diesel engines with their energy efficiency in the order of 43%.

Gas has a calorific value similar to that of Diesel but due to its lower energy density it needs to be stored in pressured tanks. In order to give the vehicles a running autonomy similar to that of conventional vehicles the storage capacity must be enlarged (a 50-l capacity gas tank is equivalent to a 13-l petrol tank). The gas tanks are also heavier. Thus, the body of the vehicle has to be reinforced since the tanks are usually located on the roof.

There are two basic concepts involved in tuning up gas engines.

Stoichiometric engines (= 1), in other words, the air/fuel ratio is exactly the theoretical ratio required for combustion. Pollutant levels (which vary depending on the richness of the mixture) are high with this tune up and it is therefore necessary to use a three-way catalyst. The performance features of this type of engine are excellent, although the consumption is relatively high.

Lean mixture engines (normally = 1.4, since leaner mixtures would cause faulty ignition and it would be necessary to think in terms of stratified load concepts). With a lean mixture, an oxidation catalyst is required, to reduce the emission of hydrocarbons. Consumption is lower, although the performance features are not so good.

Full details of companies that currently supply such vehicles or undertake vehicle conversion can be obtained by calling 0845 230 50 22

or email cng@chive-ltd.co.uk

CNG is generally stored onboard the vehicle in cylinders at a maximum pressure of 200 bar. A 90-litre cylinder will hold about 16 kg of gas. This will give a vehicle range on gas equivalent to 5.2 gallons of petrol or 3.9 gallons of diesel (this last figure allows an extra 20% for diesel engine efficiency).

Vehicle Costs

Petrol fuelled vehicles are relatively easy to convert to gas. Diesel vehicles are more difficult, requiring the addition of a spark-ignition system, and so diesel to gas conversions are rare.

Light-duty diesels are normally replaced with petrol vehicles with a bi-fuel - CNG/petrol - conversion.

Conversion costs for petrol cars and vans are typically

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holy cow!!!! more than i expected...that's what you call a "complete answer"

2000 to 6000 is nothing, the thing will pay itself when u start seeing more $$$ saved by not using gasoline fuel.

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I still don't get about how much you would safe on fuel?

Consuption is bigger.

can anyone do calculations. to clear all.

PS i prefer LPG (propane) better and easier.

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I did a little reading up on this a while back having the same concerns as you. I found that kits are more readily available to convert Carbed engines over than EFI engines. Maybe there's an EFI solution, but I couldn't find it. Most conversion kits wanted you to get an older car to convert. There is a compamy in the UK that makes kits (because they get a tax break for switching or something) but with the weak dollar and shipping, it would probably cost 3x as much.

Lemme know if you find anything as I'd love to convert my car over, too.

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B) Ok dudes...

I am happy some of you are interested in this just as much as I am. About the savings, you'd probably just waste 1/2-3/4 the amount of money you are spending at the momment (this is what I have read.) Not to mention cleaner engine, performance gains, and when you show off your ride, you can say this baby runs on CNG (or LNG, CCNG, where available).

You are right though about the CAT, no need for it. Not to mention you can BBQ with the proper adapters, lol. B)

I wonder if DERM will be inspecting my car though?lol....I hope not, they are such pains in the ars.

The reality is that I am concerned for our future, we keep wasting this pertroleum, and relying on OPEC. I say I am not going to let those greedy bastards control me anymore.

If you guys want to wait til gas hits $6 a gallon, be my guest. As for me I am gonna find another solution.

:wub: gas :p34fh:

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-_- Etched626??? :P

...don't you know what hyperlinks are for, lol, thanks anyways the info was useful. B)

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I did a search too.

I find out LPG propane is better. 110 octane

but CNG is avalable to NY, LPG is not permited in NY.

CNG is neer 130 octane.

About injectors is same princepele as Carbs, instelled before throttle body. install Cut fuel switch and thats all you need.

CNG tank is heavy, need to reinforce springs.

LPG can run longer that CNG for same fuel tank.

If you have avalability to install LPG do so, works as same as CNG and no needed increase in compresion.

Looses LPG 5%, CNG 10% in same engine compare to gasoline

check for stations: Stations

I would prefer using LPG, but i'll be able to use only CNG becouse i live in stupid NY

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B) kakarot B)

You rule!!! Nice info!!!

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thanks.

I now thinking about making CNG injector.

Why? becouse if you turbo or supercharge the fuel system wouldn't work.

it would do the oposite, it whould decrease ratio as boost increases.

Injector CNG whould work as normal injector, whould give fuel into manifold.

how? I would make a switch that whould activate CNG injectors as a rewriter.

i whould have to study phisics, to calculate right ratio. Just how much old injectors can give then i'll have to find how to calculate how much CNG whould give, find aproximatly equal, and do so mounting them above gasoline injectors. mounting a swith in cocpite to swith between two of them. I thought by cuting minus from one of them, no mumbo jumbo but still i think will work. And old system whould power up new CNG injectors.

OR

making one injector for all cylinders just after throtel body. connecting all gassoline injectors to one CNG injector (need electricity knoledge, transistors, and more electric mumbo jumbo)

PS so what do you think, It's all just theoretical. :biggrin: i saw on ebay LPG injector but it was lame and stupid for disel.

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Yeah LPG is used like NOS for diesels. So you're saying no-can turbo LPG? Crap. I got a WRX I was looking to convert.

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:blink:

Well, Im not too sure about that, because some cop cars run on CNG, and they have superchargers on them. So like you said, its about getting to the math. If I could only find someone that could do the math. If not I guess I am going to. I did awfully well in Physics in highschool. Where could I get the physics behind the Mazda 626?

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yeah, becouse to system to give more fuel it need more vacuem, some systems are using mechanic, you can find them on ebay.

I was thinking using existing fuel system electronics to controle conversion. I think ones i saw on ebay injector system for LPG for dodge. I believe i would be able in creating one. But evrything is set for sumer.

I think i whould on summer do:

increase compresion to 12:1 or 13:1 dipends on study.

instal 1 big or 3 medium tanks

take off old tank.

it dipends if i instal t or s charger then injector CNG ELSE regular vacueme system cost about 50-80 for it i believe

and maybe more... :biggrin:

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In eastern Europe there are many cars that run on CNGs, may be like 40%... They use more fuel, but it is far cheaper, so on average one saves ~25 or more% compared to gasoline. I have seen examples of almost any common model car converted to CNG including japanese imports as well as BMWs and other european cars. The modifications to the fuel system are pretty minimal and are included in a kit you buy. If you get a high quality one you may not feel loss of power (usually there is some barely perceptible loss of power). But because the fuel is cheaper you can rev it up higher and get your power :P

Yes, as someone said there is difference how it is setup between EFI and carburated engines, but it is trivial (from what I have seen).

B)

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:lol: I too am planning this for the summer, I got some money from a nice closing on Thursday, so I am gonna save that up for my CNG conversion. Oh, and its doesn't use more gas, I researched it well, it supposedly last longer. According to an Argentinian CNG forum, some guys are recording a 20%-30% increase in fuel efficiency. You just have to do the proper conversions and such. I wish I new more, but I will soon, I just purchased some books, and I am going to a convention in Davie, that should guide me in the right direction. I will post the information for you locals(Floridians) when I get the info. B)

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Ok, Gas in Miami is expected to rise to $3.00 a gallon. This is ridiculous, I am gonna go shopping around for some NG systems this weekend. I will let you all know what I did. I am also gonna take out my CAT once I install the device. This is ridiculous....

Its 4/5/04 now and the gas at 93 octane is at 2.45. So here is more information to fight back:

Conversions 101

A converted vehicle is one that was originally designed to operate on gasoline but has been altered to run on an alternative fuel such as compressed natural gas (CNG) or liquefied petroleum gas (LPG, or propane), the two most common types of alternative fuel vehicle conversions.

Converted vehicles may be "dedicated," which means that they operate only on an alternative fuel, or "dual-fuel," which means that they can operate on either an alternative fuel or gasoline, with separate tanks and fuel systems for each fuel. "Bi-fuel" vehicles are designed to run on combinations of an alternative fuel with a conventional fuel such as gasoline. Unlike dual-fuel systems, which allow the use of only one fuel at a time, bi-fuel systems supply both fuels into the combustion chamber at the same time (please note that according to industry, these definitions of "bi-fuel" and "dual-fuel" may be reversed).

All vehicle conversions must be certified according to Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum 1A (Memo 1A), the Addendum to Memo 1A, and the Revision to the Addendum to Memo 1A, which were issued by EPA. There are three options specified under the Addendum to Memo 1A through which a converted vehicle may be certified. Since Option 3 of the Addendum to Memo 1A expired on August 29, 2002, only companies who obtain either a EPA Certificate of Conformity according to Option 1 or a retrofit system certification from the California Air Resources Board (CARB) according to Option 2 of the Addendum to Memo 1A may perform alternative fuel vehicle conversions.

For information about whether a Certificate of Conformity has been issued for your vehicle and whether your vehicle can be converted, please see the information on the Conversion Company Industry Contacts Web page. If a Certificate of Conformity has not already been issued for your vehicle, it is possible that a certificate holder would consider applying for a Certificate of Conformity for that vehicle so that it could be converted. The certificate holder can also advise you regarding the cost of having your vehicle converted. Additionally, federal and state incentives can help offset the cost of a conversion.

The following is a description of the EPA certification procedure.

EPA now certifies converted vehicles, rather than conversion systems or "kits." Typically, EPA refers to a fuels converter (the certificate holder), as a "small volume manufacturer." An individual or entity that wishes to have a vehicle converted to operate on an alternative fuel must do so through a company or organization associated with a certificate holder. Examples of types of companies or organizations that hold Certificates of Conformity issued by EPA include the designer of the conversion equipment, the producer or manufacturer of the equipment, and the person or entity that plans to perform installations. It is the responsibility of the certificate holder to ensure that the equipment is properly installed and that the system is safe, durable, and results in the vehicle meeting the emission standards of the original model year of the vehicle.

Certificates of Conformity for "aftermarket" conversions (conversions on vehicles that are owned by an individual, company, or organization rather than the OEM) are signed by EPA and certify that the appropriate sections of the Code of Federal Regulations (40 CFR Parts 85 through 88) have been met. Certificates indicate the following:

The original test group of vehicles as determined and provided by the OEM. Engine families (since the 2001 model year, light-duty vehicle engine families are known as "test groups") are a subset of vehicles that the OEM certifies and have certain common operating characteristics in terms of emissions control systems. There are many different test groups; for example, the Ford F-150 could have 10 or more test groups, depending on the engine size, gross vehicle weight, and drive train of the vehicle.

The evaporative emissions family.

The state(s) in which the test group is certified (e.g. California vs. 50 state sales areas).

The "car line." For example, "F-150, 2 wheel drive, extended cab, 5.4 Liter engine."

The model year of the vehicles included in the test group.

The emissions standards that are met.

An aftermarket conversion may only be performed on a vehicle if a Certificate of Conformity or a CARB certification has been issued for that vehicle's particular model year and exhaust and evaporative emissions test groups.

For aftermarket AFV conversions, potential certificate holders must complete an application and submit emissions test data to EPA. Each year, certificate holders must file a new application to renew their certificates for a test group of a specific model year, but they do not need to submit new test data in order to renew. For example, for the conversion of a model year 2003 vehicle, EPA can issue a 2004 model year certificate (enabling the certificate holder to convert that model year 2003 vehicle test group through the end of 2004 calendar year) or a 2005 model year certificate (enabling the certificate holder to convert that model year 2003 vehicle through the end of 2005 calendar year). The certificate holder could later apply for a 2006 model year certificate, once EPA begins issuing those certificates (enabling the certificate holder to convert that model year 2003 vehicle test group through end of 2006 calendar year). The certificates are valid through December 31 of each certification year.

For information about the CARB procedures, please visit the

Aftermarket, Performance, and Add-On Parts Regulations Web page.

For additional information on small volume manufacturer conversion procedures, please see the EPA's Certification Guidance for Alternative Fuel Converters.

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Just to let you guys know, I am still working on it........I have not given up on the conversion...

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dude i didn't gave up too, but unless Maire Blomberg will alow Propane or LPG in NY, OR i move. CNG is almost useless. CNG needes compression ratio about 13~15:1 to function properly. Propane needes 11~12:1 to function properly. OR in another words Propane better for our cars that CNG in efficiency, BUT i'm not saying that CNG is bad. But it will be harder to start at winter on CNG that on Propane. Next is weight CNG weights the same per gallon that Propane but tanks on CNG is twice havier that propane, thouthly increasing weight, and down goes MPG.

Tanks can carry almost the same amount of fuel. regular CNG caries around 10 gallons per tank, we can put around lets say 3 tanks and get 30gallons of gassoline out of then, i recomend 1 and 2 tops. Propane can carry 15 gallons regular tank and we can squez only one into car. I would swtch long ago if saving*(3~5yy)=system, note i put system without instaletion cost, becouse I can put one together by my self :P .

Any CNG or LPG system can be great economy not only by cost per gallon but also that systems can run at like gassoline A/F ratio of 18-22:1 without overheat or knoking, or destroying cat. You can shot EGR shot whithout worries also. :rolleyes:

ECONOMY:: get your anual millage(YAM) devide by your millage (MPG) you get how many gallons you use per year (GPY), then GPY multiply by CNG or LPG cost all that minus GPY multiply by Gallon gassoline cost and you get your savings.

What else it can be good for, oh yea, I would put LPG or CNG for only one simple reason, BBBBBBBOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTT, MHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA, MuHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. I WOULD BE ABLE to RUN neer 20PSI without problems, and without increasing combastion chamber. :wacko: . actually 15psi for LPG and 20 psi for CNG. BUT :( ,BIG BUT It will require injector like system not vacuem which can be quite expensive, around $200 more for system :p34fh: and a little more for instalation. :huh: . WHY, WHY??? well becouse systems like SMT 6 i think or piggy back cannot work almost at 100% without injectors. Also turbo will destroy that MPG becouse power=fuel, more fuel more power with turbos. I wont be able to get the power without riching fuel. What else, I would be able to through out that s**pid catalitic wich decreases ponies. Also NITRO + GAS === BEST MIX EVER. usualy you get X HP with nitro but if you use nitro on CNG OR LPG equped vechicle you will get 5-15% more.

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I know what you mean, I have been reading about the high octane levels on CNG, and I was worried about the pinging that would perhaps occur, but you have just made that clear. I have not researched Propane, but I will tell you that Propane seems to be rather expensive...not only that it is widely sold by the same giants that control OIL. So I never thought much of it. But I will continue looking. Nice questions about the quick shifting...I recommend the lvl 10 upgrade, man, its really bean good to me.

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Propane is about 110octane while Methane is 130octane.

And for example in many counties they add butane to the mix, lowering it to around 100octane during whinter, while for CNG they dont and it stayes the same. Actually any one that lives in NYC and some times rides busses, the new busses have CNG and at winter they berly move becouse octane is to high and they cannot produce enough HP.

What i wont to say is you can run CNG but you whould have a lot of losses not only in power but engine whouldn't be able to heat up the same way. Its like using 98 octane fuel instead 87 regular, basicly 98 better but its weak for our cars.

You can buy both kits LPG or CNG in around ~2000 buks. to pay off that systems in about 2years you need to drive 19k per year. (2.4 gassoline gallon, 1.5 CNG gallon) or in 3 year about 12.5k per year.

Actually to put any LPG or CNG system you need full kit around $2k, standart tools, lift, and couple of days off, and extra pair of hands to help you with tank (even empty it's still heavy).

Actually you can put together kit by your self from ebay and/or retailer for around 1.2K.

you need tube maker, becouse each part of the tube needed special connection, but i think you can buy for any length you whant.

its without instaletion. :angry:

after you instaled you need to go through inspection to veryfy "safety"

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its 2.51 over here now...

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I've been forced to pay for regular now 2.25.

IF you drive a lot, CNG or LPG systems will cut down cost on fuel consumption

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