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Cng Conversion?


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#1
sorgeangel

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:wub: ^_^ Gas :mellow:
B) CNG B)


Now here is the thing, I am bored, and pissed off, all at the same time. So this idea may be dumb to many, but its important to me...I had been paying $2.05 for 93 octane for some months now, and its pissing me off because now I am paying $2.23 for 93 octane. So i estimate that in 5 years I'll be paying $3.50 a gallon. Which I see as utterly wrong. 4 years ago I had a friend who had GMC Sierra(company car) that ran on CNG (compressed natural gas), he said he would barley fill up the tank, and that the truck ran beautifully after the conversion.
Now, before anyone starts making ignorant comments, I let you know something, in a couple of years we are gonna be paying a good chunk of our paychecks towards gas. I already spend $120-$150 a month. I would pay what is about $1.20 a gallon in AmeriGas for a CNG fill. That is a little over half the price of what I get now. See right now we do not have CNG available in most areas, and it is not practical for most people. For me on the other hand there are two station near my house and job where I can fill up.

See I want to convert my 626 to CNG, instead of the Accord V6 for obvious reasons ('95 vs '04). I was wondering whether anyone here new anything of these types of conversions. See there are alot of benefits, for example:

lower fuel costs
120+ octane
lower maintenance costs
most certainly & cleaner exhaust emissions

The conversion is supposed to be actually inexpensive except for the tank. It will actually keeps your engine way cleaner than gas, and some cop cars here in Miami already have the switch. So does anyone know where to start?

#2
Alejo_NIN

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i live in miami, and it's pretty interesting to know that cops use CNG...well..how about the benefits performancewise?

will it actually be BETTER than gas? or is it gonna be just a "transportation" kinda car..


with gas i guess u can take out the EGR, cat converter and just have a muffler...since gas has no harmful emmisions....


do u know at least where to get a kit like that for a sierra?, maybe with some tinkering you can retrofit, or perhaps fabricate your own..

i will certainly look fordward to hearing more about this....in miami, gas prices are RIDICULOUS....2.10 for 87 octane? F that!!! i am not mad eof money....

and if anyways the government is gonna required a CNG powered car in the future...will be READY...


i know...nothing useful in my post...just supporting that dude's idea!

can someone from the BIG guys here have some input on this?











Colombian....Mazda 626 '93......Representing Miami, FL with my shitty car!

#3
etched626

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natural gas vehicles (CNG and LNG)
CNG (compressed natural gas)
LNG (liquefied natural gas)


CNG is an acronym for compressed natural gas; LNG stands for Liquefied Natural Gas.

CNG-powered vehicles use natural gas -- the same fuel that is used by stoves, water heaters and clothes dryers -- stored in cylinders at pressures of 2,000 to 3,500 pounds per square inch. Compressed natural gas is used in light-duty passenger vehicles and pickup trucks, medium-duty delivery trucks, and in transit and school buses. LNG, on the other hand, is favored for heavy-duty applications, such as transit buses, train locomotives and long-haul semi-trucks.

CNG (Compressed Natural Gas)
Natural gas vehicles are expected to help auto companies meet the California Air Resources Board's 1997 mandates for Low Emission Vehicles and Ultra-Low Emission Vehicles. Because there are abundant supplies of natural gas in North America, using natural gas to replace gasoline helps reduce our country's dependency on foreign petroleum.

The cost of equipping a light-duty vehicle to run on compressed natural gas (CNG) can range from about $2,000 up to about $6,000, depending on the vehicle and number of cylinders to store the fuel. Natural gas is less expensive than gasoline, and the relatively stable price of the fuel makes it attractive to fleets to help them budget their transportation expenses.

CNG ranks relatively high in convenience and availability. California's extensive network of natural gas pipelines can deliver the fuel directly to many sites where compressors are installed by the local utility. These can even include individual homes. Two types of fueling systems are available for commercial use: a "quick fill" system that fuels a vehicle in five minutes (similar to the time it takes to fuel a vehicle with gasoline) or a "slow fill" system that can fuel an entire fleet overnight. CNG may be the preferred clean, alternative fuel for fleet use where vehicles travel specified routes, such as delivery trucks, and return to a central yard where they can be slow-filled overnight.

Top of Page


LNG (Liquefied Natural Gas)
Natural gas turns into a liquid for easy storage or transport by extreme cooling to minus 263.2 degrees Fahrenheit (-164 degrees Celsius). LNG is almost pure methane and, because it is a liquid, has an energy storage density much closer to gasoline than CNG. The requirements of keeping the liquid very cold, along with its volatility, make its applications more limited for transportation purposes. It is typically used in heavy-duty applications such as transit buses, heavy-duty long-haul trucks or locomotives.

On-line resources:

contacts for alternative fuel vehicles
ethanol vehicles
methanol vehicles
electric vehicles
natural gas vehicles
propane / LPG vehicles
fuel cell & hybrid vehicles


Ethanol
Bill Holmberg
President
American Biofuels Association
1925 N. Lynn Street, Suite 1050
Arlington, VA 22209
703-522-3392

American Council For Ethanol
PO Box 85102
Sioux Falls, SD 57104
Web site: www.ethanol.org

Jeff Beller and Julia Delain
Biofuels America
RD 1, Box 19
Westerlo, NY 12193-9801
518-797-3377

Douglas Durante
Clean Fuels Development Coalition
7315 Wisconsin Avenue
East Tower -- Suite 515
Bethesda, MD 20814
301-913-9636

Patricia Sullivan
Consortium for Planned Biotechnology Research
1220 Potter Drive, Suite 130-D
West Lafayette, IN 47906
317-494-9334

A. Michel Clement
Alternative Fuels Vehicle Marketing
DaimlerChrysler Corporation
12000 Chrysler Drive
CIMS 414-03-44
Highland Park, MI 48288
313-956-4599

Ford Motor Company
Alternative Fuel Vehicle Hotline
1-877-ALT-FUEL (258-3835)

W.J. "Bill" Boultas
Account Executive
Fleet Sales Dept.
General Fleet Office
Ford Division
P.O. Box 9048
Pleasanton, CA 94566
510-463-5791

Lou Ulrich
Account Executive
Fleet Sales Dept.
General Fleet Office
Ford Division
2099 South State College Blvd.
Suite 600
Anaheim, CA 92816
714-939-3562

Gerald J. Barnes
Manager
Automotive Emissions Control
General Motors Corporation
3044 West Grand Blvd.
Detroit, MI 48202
313-556-7723

Governor's Ethanol Coalition
ENR 325 West Adams, 3rd Floor
Springfield, IL 62704
217-785-2800

Iowa Corn Promotion Board
306 West Tower
1200 35th Street
W. Des Moines, IA 50262
515-225-9242

Bob Mustell
National Corn Growers Association
1000 Executive Parkway, Suite 105
St. Louis, MO 63141
314-275-9915 ext. 113

Eric Vaughn
Executive Director
Renewable Fuels Association
One Massachusetts Ave., N.W., # 820
Washington, DC 20001
202-289-3835

Sustainable Farming
REAP - Canada
Box 125, Glenaladale House
Ste. Anne de Bellevue, Quebec
CANADA H9X 1C0
514-398-7743




Methanol Vehicles
American Methanol Institute
815 Connecticut Ave., N.W.,
Suite 800
Washington, DC 20006
202-467-5050
Web site: www.methanol.org

Kenneth D. Smith, Consultant
(West Coast Representative)
American Methanol Institute
3939 Fair Hill Rd.
Fair Oaks, CA 95628
916-204-4421

California Energy Commission
Transportation Technology & Fuels Office
1516 Ninth Street, MS-41
Sacramento, CA 95814
916-654-4634
M85 Fueling Problems in California: 800-CEC-4M85 (toll free in California)

California Fuel Methanol Reserve
Card-Key Access
Judy Burns
Chevron Products Company U.S.A.
P.O. Box 9560
Concord, CA 94524-9875
800-554-1376

A. Michel Clement
Alternative Fuels Vehicle Marketing
Chrysler Corporation
12000 Chrysler Drive
CIMS 414-03-44
Highland Park, MI 48288
313-956-4599

Ford Motor Company
Alternative Fuel Vehicle Hotline
1-877-ALT-FUEL (258-3835)

Lou Ulrich
Account Executive
Fleet Sales Dept
General Fleet Office
Ford Division
2099 South State College Blvd.
Suite 600
Anaheim, CA 92816
714-939-3562

Gerald J. Barnes
Manager
Automotive Emissions Control
General Motors Corporation
3044 West Grand Blvd.
Detroit, MI 48202
313-556-7723

http://www.eere.ener...afdc/index.html
^^^^^Currently Available Vehicles^^^^^

http://search.ebay.c...aturalQ2aQ20gas
^^^^from e-bay^^^^

Introduction to the Technology

When examining natural gas technology in the transport field, a distinction must be made between its supply, the refuelling stations and the vehicles themselves.

Gas Supply

Natural gas basically consists of methane, and it therefore provides a genuine energy alternative. Natural gas can be used in engines in a liquefied form or as compressed gas. In order to liquefy it at atmospheric pressure, it would be necessary to bring it to a temperature of -162 C. As a result of supply conditions, in Europe it is used mainly in the form of Compressed Natural Gas (CNG).

The Refuelling Station

The widespread use of natural gas as a transport fuel will require easy access to the fuel from a large number of suitable filling stations of a similar nature to the current network, that would allow rapid refuelling.

The facilities to implement such a system consist of the following elements:

National gas pipeline supply network
Local filling stations comprising storage, gas compression units and refuelling pipes
High pressure gas storage tanks suitable for attachment to vehicles and capable of withstanding crash impact forces
There are several types of refuelling station depending on whether refuelling is carried out slowly (over some 7-8 hours) or quickly (610minutes).

Currently, certified gas compression units, storage and filling systems are available to meet the necessary criteria for safe and emission-free vehicle refuelling. Suitable gas storage facilities are also available.

The Vehicle

A range of existing conventional engines can be converted to run on natural gas. Moreover, engines designed specifically for natural gas are available as prototypes.

The reliability of these systems has yet to be comprehensively demonstrated, although there are programmes to do so currently in progress. Until this process is complete and the demand for dedicated natural gas vehicles increases, the costs of such vehicles will remain high.

It is expected that the initial use of natural gas in the transport sector will be concentrated in urban vehicle fleets, where the depot can have easy access to a gas supply, and the environmental benefits of low emissions will be maximised.

Compared with conventional vehicles, vehicles running on natural gas are characterised by the engine settings and the presence of larger volume storage tanks.

Given the high antiknocking capacity of this fuel, higher than that of petrol, gas cannot be used in engines with compression ignition, but must be used in Otto cycle or spark ignition engines. This has advantages and drawbacks. On the one hand, since gas has a higher octane rating, spark ignition engines can be designed with a higher compression ratio and these are more efficient. On the other hand, however, the thermodynamic efficiency of the gas cycle is lower than with Diesel. The best gas powered engines achieve a level of efficiency in the order of 36-37%, which places them above petrol engines but below modern Diesel engines with their energy efficiency in the order of 43%.

Gas has a calorific value similar to that of Diesel but due to its lower energy density it needs to be stored in pressured tanks. In order to give the vehicles a running autonomy similar to that of conventional vehicles the storage capacity must be enlarged (a 50-l capacity gas tank is equivalent to a 13-l petrol tank). The gas tanks are also heavier. Thus, the body of the vehicle has to be reinforced since the tanks are usually located on the roof.

There are two basic concepts involved in tuning up gas engines.

Stoichiometric engines (= 1), in other words, the air/fuel ratio is exactly the theoretical ratio required for combustion. Pollutant levels (which vary depending on the richness of the mixture) are high with this tune up and it is therefore necessary to use a three-way catalyst. The performance features of this type of engine are excellent, although the consumption is relatively high.

Lean mixture engines (normally = 1.4, since leaner mixtures would cause faulty ignition and it would be necessary to think in terms of stratified load concepts). With a lean mixture, an oxidation catalyst is required, to reduce the emission of hydrocarbons. Consumption is lower, although the performance features are not so good.

Full details of companies that currently supply such vehicles or undertake vehicle conversion can be obtained by calling 0845 230 50 22
or email cng@chive-ltd.co.uk

CNG is generally stored onboard the vehicle in cylinders at a maximum pressure of 200 bar. A 90-litre cylinder will hold about 16 kg of gas. This will give a vehicle range on gas equivalent to 5.2 gallons of petrol or 3.9 gallons of diesel (this last figure allows an extra 20% for diesel engine efficiency).

Vehicle Costs

Petrol fuelled vehicles are relatively easy to convert to gas. Diesel vehicles are more difficult, requiring the addition of a spark-ignition system, and so diesel to gas conversions are rare.

Light-duty diesels are normally replaced with petrol vehicles with a bi-fuel - CNG/petrol - conversion.

Conversion costs for petrol cars and vans are typically £3,000

The Energy Saving Trust 's 'Powershift' programme will provide up to 75% funding of the additional costs associated with obtaining gas vehicles. Details can be obtained on the Powershift web site www.powershift.org.uk


well I hope some of this helps you out .I would like to see how it comes out myself .we do have the stations here too .

well hope this was not to much info at once and if you need more help let me know .

I had a uncle do this to his truck and he said it work great .

etch

#4
Alejo_NIN

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holy cow!!!! more than i expected...that's what you call a "complete answer"
2000 to 6000 is nothing, the thing will pay itself when u start seeing more $$$ saved by not using gasoline fuel.

#5
kakarot

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I still don't get about how much you would safe on fuel?
Consuption is bigger.
can anyone do calculations. to clear all.
PS i prefer LPG (propane) better and easier.

#6
billzebub

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I did a little reading up on this a while back having the same concerns as you. I found that kits are more readily available to convert Carbed engines over than EFI engines. Maybe there's an EFI solution, but I couldn't find it. Most conversion kits wanted you to get an older car to convert. There is a compamy in the UK that makes kits (because they get a tax break for switching or something) but with the weak dollar and shipping, it would probably cost 3x as much.

Lemme know if you find anything as I'd love to convert my car over, too.

#7
sorgeangel

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B) Ok dudes...

I am happy some of you are interested in this just as much as I am. About the savings, you'd probably just waste 1/2-3/4 the amount of money you are spending at the momment (this is what I have read.) Not to mention cleaner engine, performance gains, and when you show off your ride, you can say this baby runs on CNG (or LNG, CCNG, where available).
You are right though about the CAT, no need for it. Not to mention you can BBQ with the proper adapters, lol. B)
I wonder if DERM will be inspecting my car though?lol....I hope not, they are such pains in the ars.

The reality is that I am concerned for our future, we keep wasting this pertroleum, and relying on OPEC. I say I am not going to let those greedy bastards control me anymore.

If you guys want to wait til gas hits $6 a gallon, be my guest. As for me I am gonna find another solution.


:wub: gas :p34fh:

#8
sorgeangel

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-_- Etched626??? :P

...don't you know what hyperlinks are for, lol, thanks anyways the info was useful. B)

#9
kakarot

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I did a search too.
I find out LPG propane is better. 110 octane
but CNG is avalable to NY, LPG is not permited in NY.
CNG is neer 130 octane.
About injectors is same princepele as Carbs, instelled before throttle body. install Cut fuel switch and thats all you need.
CNG tank is heavy, need to reinforce springs.
LPG can run longer that CNG for same fuel tank.

If you have avalability to install LPG do so, works as same as CNG and no needed increase in compresion.
Looses LPG 5%, CNG 10% in same engine compare to gasoline
check for stations: Stations
I would prefer using LPG, but i'll be able to use only CNG becouse i live in stupid NY

#10
sorgeangel

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B) kakarot B)

You rule!!! Nice info!!!

#11
kakarot

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thanks.
I now thinking about making CNG injector.
Why? becouse if you turbo or supercharge the fuel system wouldn't work.
it would do the oposite, it whould decrease ratio as boost increases.
Injector CNG whould work as normal injector, whould give fuel into manifold.

how? I would make a switch that whould activate CNG injectors as a rewriter.
i whould have to study phisics, to calculate right ratio. Just how much old injectors can give then i'll have to find how to calculate how much CNG whould give, find aproximatly equal, and do so mounting them above gasoline injectors. mounting a swith in cocpite to swith between two of them. I thought by cuting minus from one of them, no mumbo jumbo but still i think will work. And old system whould power up new CNG injectors.
OR
making one injector for all cylinders just after throtel body. connecting all gassoline injectors to one CNG injector (need electricity knoledge, transistors, and more electric mumbo jumbo)

PS so what do you think, It's all just theoretical. :biggrin: i saw on ebay LPG injector but it was lame and stupid for disel.

#12
billzebub

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Yeah LPG is used like NOS for diesels. So you're saying no-can turbo LPG? Crap. I got a WRX I was looking to convert.

#13
sorgeangel

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:blink:
Well, Im not too sure about that, because some cop cars run on CNG, and they have superchargers on them. So like you said, its about getting to the math. If I could only find someone that could do the math. If not I guess I am going to. I did awfully well in Physics in highschool. Where could I get the physics behind the Mazda 626?

#14
kakarot

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yeah, becouse to system to give more fuel it need more vacuem, some systems are using mechanic, you can find them on ebay.
I was thinking using existing fuel system electronics to controle conversion. I think ones i saw on ebay injector system for LPG for dodge. I believe i would be able in creating one. But evrything is set for sumer.
I think i whould on summer do:
increase compresion to 12:1 or 13:1 dipends on study.
instal 1 big or 3 medium tanks
take off old tank.
it dipends if i instal t or s charger then injector CNG ELSE regular vacueme system cost about 50-80 for it i believe
and maybe more... :biggrin:

#15
kakarot

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Yeah LPG is used like NOS for diesels.  So you're saying no-can turbo LPG?  Crap. I got a WRX I was looking to convert.

no i ment that some systems cannot work with super or turbo chargers.
some LPG and GNG systems work that when vacuem increase (RPM increases) the diafragm applies force on valve and valve opens gives more fuel.

Others work as injectors elecronicly which able to work with chargers. Ford Crown Victoria, F-150 and Dodge vans have injectors.

Some work mechanicly on princep of carburator, usually on forklifts.

hope it helps.
PS.:
Ford
LPG injector





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